damned_lounge | Courtyard people?

Courtyard people?

That's... Harley, Angel, and Anya I think? Um, we've got Allen, Rinali, and Sora coming in from over the rec-field fence. I posted their arrival, but I didn't add to the current thread just.. so we don't have a doom thread just yet. Did you want us to join in, or just kind of skirt around the way until you guys are finished with your fight? If you guys could let us know how you'd like to deal with the new arrivals, that'd be great. :D Thanks!

Also! If either Anya or Angel would be visible as 'demons' to Allen, could you let me know? His criteria is a little bit different from the usual. If you don't know about the canon, just let me know and I'll get you some more specific questions. Unfortunately, I'm not at all familiar with the canon they're from... *fails* I just ask because it'll probably have some bearing on which side Allen would try to take if they joined in the fight. For Allen... circus/clowny people = good. demons... = baaaaad. So... yeah. ;D

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Both me and Maia (Angel-mun) are on semi-hiatus/slow posting right now, so it probably wouldn't be a good idea to merge threads. The Harley/Angel/Anya fight is going reeaaally slowly and I don't want to bog you guys down DX;

As for the demon thing, Anya looks like this (http://pics.livejournal.com/wishescankill/pic/00004he3) right now, so Allen probably won't have to rely on any sort of special powers to figure out she's a demon. But I don't know the canon at all, so if you've got more specific questions, fire away! :D

Haha, thanks for letting me know :D that helps a lot!

Heeeeey, I know both cannons!

Anya would definitely not show up as Akuma.

Angel is...a tricky call. Typically a vampire is a human possessed by a demon (kinda-sorta...basically when a human is "turned" the soul is lost and the demon takes over for the body), but Angel is special, because he actually ~has~ a human soul, cursed unto him by Gypsies. The big question, one which I've never seen a solid answer to in the cannon, is whether this was Angel's original soul, or if this was a new soul forged by said gypsies (then reforged by Willow in season 2, but...yeah, we don't really need to get into that.) In either case, his soul isn't exactly in its "natural" body anymore, as a vampire, even a vampire with a soul, is still part demon.

So....yeah. I think Angel'd be a tough call, but Anya IS in her natural body (as creepy a body as it is). She's not possessing anybody.

Yay for knowing both canons! :D Thanks!

I don't mind either way, but like Emmy said, both of us are on semi-hiatus and the thread's going at a pace of an average of one post per 1.5 days. DX;;; So if you guys wanna hop in, I'm okay with it, but...I'm afraid we'll really bog you all down. .__.;;

OTHER THAN THAT! Angel is also currently looking all vampire-y, so Allen will likely be able to tell right away that something's not right just by looking at him. 8D;;

I don't know your canon, but BtVS canon has Angel's demon as a sort-of separate entity that resides within his mind, sharing the space along with his soul. Angelus can be likened to his alter-ego of sorts, basically. Essentially, he's like a split personality where his soul currently dominates (sort of) over his demon, but Angelus is still a noticeable influence that lurks beneath.

I'm not sure how that would register with Allen? D: So yeah, questions and stuff, just ask. 8D;; Jossverse canon can get a bit...iffy. :[

EDIT: As for what David said about it being his original soul or not, I don't think it's a new soul because AtS canon has stated that the soul can be destroyed or it can be restored and that if it's destroyed, it's game over and Angel becomes Angelus forever--no way of bringing his soul back. This suggests that you can't make a new soul, only take it in or out.

However, Angel's personality after he becomes souled is clearly very different from how he was before he became a vampire, so the soul obviously isn't the same. What I Would say is that his soul is changed drastically, but at its core, it's still "his" soul, not a new one that was forged.

Edited 2008-06-15 15:29 (UTC)

Hm... that does get confusing. As long as its still his original soul in his original body, even if they look creepy as Anya or whatnot, he wouldn't think they're a demon... ~~he's brilliant like that.~~ But if for some reason the current container doesn't match up with the soul, that's when he'd get a little suspicious.

Hm, okay, well, essentially, it can swing both ways, really, and it all comes down to what you'd define as his "original" body. (And I'm not sure if you're still planning to hop into the thread or not, but since they might meet sometime down the road...I figured we might as well clear this up now in any case. XDD)

1) When he became a vampire, he didn't occupy another body; he just became less human and took on super strength and sharp teeth and all those other vampire-y things. So in this regard, his body is the original body. Furthermore, Liam (his human self) is actually fairly similar to Angelus (his demon): loud, sexually promiscuous, selfish, and not very into doing good deeds or saving the human race. He doesn't possess Angelus' level of cruelty, but one could say that it was because he just never had the opportunity to do so until Darla came along and showed him what he was capable of.

2) However, becoming a vampire did alter his body drastically. Not in looks, but physically speaking, he is definitely no longer human. He's a vampire and Liam became Angelus, taking on a new name and everything, and adopting a high level of sadism on the scale of a sociopathic serial killer that admittedly, Liam showed very little to no signs of (he seemed to love his sister a lot as Liam, but killed her without hesitation as Angelus).

Going with Option #1:

Since, as mentioned above, the soul is his in that no one created a new one for him, that soul would belong to that body. No clashing between soul and container.

Going with Option # 2:

Angel is a very different persona than both his human self and his demon self. When he temporarily reverts back to his Liam self due to a memory loss spell, he ends up embracing the idea that he's a vampire and has no guilt about trying to kill a girl. So it's not the soul itself that makes Angel, but rather, the combination of his memories of slaughtering people as Angelus with that soul.

From there, two conclusions:

--> 1) His soul is not occupying its original container because it originally belonged to the very human Liam, not Angelus the vampire. As well, a vampire should not naturally have a soul. It goes against pretty much every metaphysical law of the Buffyverse. In this sense, the soul can be seen as something that invaded Angelus—it wasn't so much something that went missing and was returned, but rather was forced into a place where it isn't supposed to be. This is supported by the fact that when he gains his soul, it shares a space with his demon, but his demon never shared a space with his soul when he initially became a vampire. In other words, the demon can exist without the soul, but the soul can't exist without the demon.

--> 2) His soul was returned to his vampire self, and therefore underwent a drastic change due to its conflict with his demon, which resulted in the formation of his third and currently dominant personality, Angel.

So, if this is the interpretation taken, then not only is his soul not even supposed to naturally be there in the first place, neither the soul nor the body is in its original condition. Both have undergone major changes and they would not match with each other.

THAT SAID:

I would personally lean toward Option #2 just because there is shown to be a real conflict between his demon and soul, and this struggle is an extremely important aspect of his character to the point where it almost defines who he is. Without any of it, Angel probably never would've emerged at all, and the differences between Angel and Angelus are extreme. While hints of Angelus may peek through Angel, zero hints of Angel ever show through Angelus (unless he's playacting).

But yes. Er, it's really up to you since I don't mind either way, so whatever you feel fits best for Allen and stuff? XD;

...AND. Yeah. .__.;; Sorry for the uber long reply aldfjasl;jf I HOPE THAT…KIND OF MAKES SENSE? ;___; ♥

Okay, it looks like just allen and possibly rinali? will be coming to join the thread while Sora runs off. Um, I hope that is still ok ^^; Thanks for all the info!!

Sure, it's fine with me, though maybe check with Emmy and Jax, too? :D I haven't really heard from them either way, so I'm not sure. But yeah, for me personally, I'm cool with them hopping in. ♥

What season/episode did that come from? I'm shamed that I don't remember this conversation in Angel cannon! ; ;

It was in season 4. XD; I can't remember the exact episode, but it was during the arc where evil!Cordy had stolen the jar that held Angel's soul and...I think they were talking to the monk that removed the soul in the first place. The jar was technically supposed to protect the soul, but somehow that meant that they couldn't restore the soul unless they had the jar in their possession. Since it was now missing, he said something about how if they broke the jar, then the soul would be released, where it could either be restored or destroyed. Thinking about it now, though, since I rarely think about Season 4 *shot*, it's a small plothole as to why Cordy/Beastmaster/Higher Power!Jasmine didn't just destroy the soul altogether the moment she stole the jar, but I'd say it might be because she was using it to blackmail Angelus into working for her by threatening to lock him away inside Angel again.

Plus, there was also Season 5 when Illyria took over Fred. They were all running on the idea that they could still save her as long as her soul was still intact, until they were told that her soul had been destroyed when Illyria had clawed her way in.

ON THE OTHER HAND, Joss had plans to bring Fred back before the WB yanked the plug on Season 6 alksjfdsajf; and I'm not sure if he went down that road in After the Fall yet, so that might change things depending on how and if it ever played out. And I mean. It's Jossverse canon. With his "NO BREATH FOR CPR, BUT I CAN STILL SMOKE!" and other various contradictions. DX;; But as the canon stands right now, I think it's more likely than not that his soul was restored rather than re-forged. :3

Edited 2008-06-16 15:17 (UTC)

OH RIGHT! Season 4. I really need to rewatch that season. :P

I think I'm the only person in the world who actually liked season 4, and I think part of the reason is because I watched the entire season in one sitting. You really can't pull out just one episode and enjoy that in the season. It's like a soap opera. You miss one episode and you're lost.

Ugh. I hate them for pulling the plug on season 6. I watched every episode of season 5 when it aired, and loved it dearly. *crai*

XD I was rewatching it...just awhile back, aha.

I liked it for the episodes themselves since I thought they were really strong altogether--the ones with Faith coming back and Spin the Bottle in particular--but I wasn't too smitten with the Jasmine arc and I think Conner just kind of irritated me after awhile. DX;; I liked him better in Season 5 when he was...actually well-adjusted and not about to blow himself up with an entire building. 8D;;

Season 5 was pretty good as individual episodes as well, but yeah. I didn't much like it for the lighting (it was so briiight ;__;) and...it was just super different from its roots. .__.;; Spike saved it, but that's about it. I think I'm just nostalgic or something, but I've always adored Angel in Seasons 1 & 2 for the atmosphere and the more gritty urban, almost film-noir feel rather than the more fantastical feel of Season 4. And the W&H setting didn't do it for me, either. After Greenwalt left, the look really changed. 8|

On the other hand, I liked BtVS Season 6 when no one else seems to have. >_O;;

I will admit, seasons 3-5 had very different feels from each other and from 1-2, but I found that charming about the series altogether. It played with a lot of different themes, and while it was the same people it was almost like an entirely different show each season. It seemed kinda unique to me.

I will admit, I loved that Spike was in season 5. Some of my favorite lines in the season came from him, "You...You're a bloody puppet man!"

I liked the Jasmine arc once Jasmine came out. I thought it raised some interesting questions, really. 10 lives to save hundreds...

Haha, I liked BtVS Season 6 as well. Not all of it, and it was probably the weakest of the seasons, but it had my favorite episode of all time. That's right. The musical.

XD This is true. I mean, nitpicks I have aside, AtS still remains probably my favourite series ever ~~as you can probably tell~~, so in that sense, I really love all of it. 8D;; I liked it better than BtVS, really. (Plus, Angelus in Season 4? Was so much fun to watch).

Spike is always awesome, and that gets x100 when he's paired with Angel. 8D;; And yeah, concept of Season 4 was definitely an interesting one and the development of Lilah was nice to see, too, since I'd always liked her.

Everybody loves the musical, that thing was genius.~ :D Although I liked S6 because of the screwed up Buffy/Spike relationship. I CAN'T HELP IT, these things interest me. T__T;; It's probably why I was the only one who saw Conner/Cordy and was like, "OH HEY, HE BASICALLY JUST SLEPT WITH HIS MOTHER. THIS IS DISTURBING, YET AWESOME. :D"

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Courtyard people?

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