damned_lounge | Activity Check Discussion Post + Contact List Update

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*poll

Activity Check Discussion Post + Contact List Update

Hello, everyone!

While the game has been trucking along pretty nicely (I hope the military arc has been enjoyable for most of you!), recently there's been a lot of talk about people's waning activity. I do think that Damned is a place where you can afford to be slow at times, where you don't have to post to every shift -- this isn't meant to discourage people who aren't lightning taggers like some of us. It's already been mentioned a number of times, but there's little I can do as a mod to make people post faster, and yet there are a few changes that can be made to possibly work through this problem. I definitely want to encourage people to put their all into the game when possible and to play out some awesome plots, so here goes.

This issue was brought up over on the suggestions post, so this is mainly just meant to be a continuation of that. It was mentioned there that this is something that should be talked about by the game as a whole, and so this post is basically an open forum for people to give their thoughts and talk things out. Whether you're one of the people who's frustrated or someone who is on the slow side and looking to explain your side of things, feel free to reply and comment around!

The two solutions which have been brought up are as follows:

a) changing the requirements for the activity check
b) adding a "Posting Speed" section to the plot post form

The second option there would mainly be a way for people to know from the start what to expect from potential thread partners. It's not much of a change, but it would allow an open line of communication to be present from the start.

Changing the Activity Check requirements is something that is going to require some more thought, and so I'd like to start by polling you all on if you think it's something that needs to be revised.

[Poll #1781912]

So go ahead and fill that out, reply here with your thoughts, and we'll see what we can do about this! I'm sorry there's not more I can do, but hopefully this is a step in the right direction.

Additionally, some changes have been made to the Contact List in order to make communication easier for everyone. There's been a spot added for people to list their plurk names if they wish. It's in no way required, but if you are open to people contacting you/conversing with you through plurk then please feel free to list it. More importantly, a Preferred Method of Contact section has been added so that other players can know how you would like to be contacted. I'd like to ask for everyone to respond to the contact list with their response to that section if possible! Thanks a lot for reading all this, and have a nice night, everyone.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I said yes, but I'm on the fence. I'd mostly like to see more communication, rather than more work for the mods, and I'm not sure that a specifically stricter requirement would do anything other than the latter.

[slinks off to work on tag]

Cager here. Not gonna lie, I'm one of the slower posters here at Damned, but even so I do believe there is call for some revision of the AC. I personally don't feel ACs get posted frequently enough. It feels like its been forever since we've had one, though that might also be because I might have been hiatused during the last one? (not quite sure if I'm remembering correctly)

As it is, I think having ACs that are more frequent might at least boost my own speed up a bit. I'll be more mindful of it, rather than like "Oh, I can probably wait a day or so more, it should be fine..." since this train of thought can sometimes repeat itself several days in a row. Not that I'm trying to be a lazy poster, of course. ^^; I actually try to make sure my threadmates know I'm generally not very fast, particularly during the school year when I'm both mentally exhausted from classes and physically exhausted from work.

I know I need to step up my own game too, so I'm hoping that it's been long enough in the school year that I can start to better manage my time.

i can't discuss at length because i'm still without keyboard, but i'm a pretty slow poster myself. i've been attempting to fix this, and i'll agree once every two weeks isn't enough, but i honestly find this whole notion of the game as a whole needing to pick up the pace kind of unwelcoming.

Yeah, but to be frank, the game is a plot-heavy one that is dependent on people going forth, developing their characters within the setting, and finding things out. The spread of information and the amount that is getting done, as was brought up in one of the original points, is a valid thing. It's something that has to be kept in mind when approaching this situation. I used to have a hard time developing my characters and getting overwhelmed, so I did a few :/ drops until I permanently did.

I don't know, I doubt anyone is really critically judging anyone else for their posting speed, but there are certain expectations to be met with the game, and the current constraints make it too easy for those to barely be met, if they're met at all. If you aren't actively playing your character, why are you playing them? I am not sure how to word that less harshly, so I apologize. Every other game I've been in expects far more activity than Damned. Yes, it's a prose game with decompressed time, but ... I don't know.

I wish I could make suggestions myself on helping people post faster, because I don't have any. I do think a weight that reminds people that they actively need to be on top of things would help.

I'm honestly mostly ambivalent about the idea of new AC requirements. I could take it or leave it. But I think this is probably not the solution to the problem that's being discussed. As you said, posting rate is a problem on the individual level, not the game-wide level, and I don't think there's much that the mods can do to fix it. So yeah, sure, I don't think a different AC will hurt, but I think in the long term it won't help much either.

My major concern right now is that the discussion about activity has been moving in an increasingly angry, resentful direction.

While some people have kept it to basic, reasonable concerns about posting rates, communication and the state of the game, there's also been a lot of less tolerant comments. I don't think this discussion is going to be productive if it continues along this "us vs. them" sort of path. Who's a slow poster? Who should I avoid? Who's an unreliable flake? Who should just drop already because they obviously can't handle it? It's all really pretty unpleasant to read. I don't think it's going to encourage anyone to be an active participant in Damned if they feel unwelcome, or like there are other RPers who have this much potential resentment towards them for their posting rate. People being nasty about slow posters is going to stop new apps and faster posts more than a sluggish game will.

...replying to myself because I'm too lazy to switch journals \o/

I think one of the issues is that slow posting leads to a vicious cycle of feeling the need to have The Perfect Post after making people wait, and then it takes longer, etc. If you're spitting out posts, it's not the end of the world if you go back and cringe at one of them out of a big thread, later. I don't mean completely sacrificing quality, but I think sometimes we worry too much.

And I say all of this (fyi for anyone I haven't threaded with) as someone who is never going to be one of the fast posters. I have very limited times I can RP during, and no matter how fast I churn out tags, if I'm only on for two hours out of 24, that usually means a max of 1 tag per thread per day.

Edit: in case it wasn't clear, I don't mind slow threads at all; I've had a lot of really fun slow-but-steady and/or backthreaded threads, so it's not that at all. It's just that I don't want every thread to backthread to infinity; I try to manage the number of open threads I have so that I'm not slowing people down by drowning in tags.

Edited 2011-09-27 03:13 (UTC)

I am very much for the idea of a change in activity. I liked the idea of two lengthy threads a month, with explanations made if they were unable to fill the quota. In other games, I've seen activity posts made, where the players are responsible by the final day of the month to get in their activity. Perhaps a post like that would help, as well with the organization of regular activity checks, with someone brought on or someone current appointed to help the mods figure out who did and didn't meet activity. Called hiatuses are obviously allowed within this.

(I believe Gargleblasted does this, if anyone wants to go check it out.)

I know I am speaking from a biased point of view, but one post every two weeks, regardless of the circumstances, seems like very little threading to get done. Even six posts a month seems like very little given that this is a character driven game where character motivations need to be applied to how they are actively handling the setting. It's not like it's one character posting and threading in first person with five people like comm-based games (comm being communicator); it's one person in-depth discussing something with another character.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, because I've been guilty of negligent posting in my previous time in the game, but I just don't know how the current restrictions promote a driven atmosphere.

I'm wondering if the problem is "dropping threads" as opposed to just "slow tagging". Slow tagging is still tagging; even posting every other day, if you're good about pacing, will result in Things Getting Done. But a dropped thread, at the very worst, will lose you like 1 or 2 weeks that you actually wanted to play out (assuming you got dropped in the middle of NS, for example).

It's not anything communication and handwaving can't solve, but yeah, maybe we need to isolate the real problem first LOL. Telling the game to speed up is making other people feel like they're getting picked on.

Personally, I don't think 1 tag per thread per day isn't slow at all. That is at least 4 threads out by the end of a shift during DS. I guess the definition of slow posting might be closer to the current AC requirement (1 tag per 2 weeks)? Not sure, but that's how I see it.

... *is slow at all

I'm smart.

I've said yes, but with the concession that if we can adjust our posting speed, are willing to understand our own limitations with threading, and keep an active and open avenue for communication, we may be able to get by without an AC change. I will say that the biggest roadblock I've noticed for this issue has more to do with letting threadmates know when you can't post/will be slow when they happen so perhaps a posting speed notice could be more beneficial.

I'm definitely on the slower side of posters now and was very close to calling a Hiatus before this went up. I hate calling hiatuses because it makes me feel like I'm letting my threadmates down, and I don't want to do that. Still, without the time to post, I basically end up dragging my feet anyway and they have to suffer regardless!

It's a lose/lose, you know?

But anyway, here's an essay of reasons why I end up slow - none of which involve a lacking desire to post and play the game:

-Real life has to come first. That's always a given. My Octobers get difficult since it's where I start a second job at a Haunted House. I don't know how other players' falls look, but mine have their heavy times.
-Notifications. I don't use them - I have no desire to get accustomed to something that apparently doesn't work all the time. So instead I keep tabs open. I might close a tab on accident and a thread gets dropped without me remembering. Happened to a backthread I was supposed to have posted to some weeks ago but forgot.
-You covered it with the "Preferred Method of Contact", but yeah, like notifs, I don't look through PMs sent to character journals. I have too many characters to log in/out and check them all - send me an e-mail! Also, I'm never doing PLURK~~soundslikebarf~~.
-Nightshift if difficult to post to for three weeks(+) if you cannot get your character a date! This NS is the first that I've gotten a character out on his own, but that was only because I swore I'd get him out after hiatusing him the night before. Getting him moving on his own was a very difficult task for the lacking motivation of a thread-mate - and it's the reason why my second character without a partner to thread with has 3 posts this NS, her posts coming roughly every week or two.
-Probably just me, but I've been put off a bit with the rules regarding posting free/closed during the DS. Even when I have a character that is free, I don't like posting that they are [free] because it's like a "come and get me" mark, rather than a chance for someone to thread because they actually want to. Searching through posts just to find someone free is restricting, as are posts listed as closed/for whomever. They just make me sigh because maybe I've been waiting for that character to be free and I didn't catch the Plot Post soon enough. Also, restricting.
-Also for DS, I want to say that the length of the shifts deters some as well, or at least me. Most are 3 days and if you don't post immediately to the first day the shift goes up, by the next day you've pretty much missed half of the shift. When that happens to me, all I think it "there's no point" and end up missing the shift altogether.

I need to go to bed now, but if I think of more, I'll get it up when I've got the time.

For me, it's not really an issue of "Let's change Activity Checks so people will post more! Yeah, that'll show 'em!" Everyone has different posting speeds, styles and methods that suits them. That's totally okay!

The main issue, I think, is that the current AC requirement of 1 post every 2 weeks doesn't provide enough structure to stay reasonably involved.

Speaking as someone who turns into a slow-poster the minute I'm in backthread country, I think I'd personally like something a little more concrete to help me and the person I'm threading with stay on top of our threads, and perhaps not feel the need to take on more than we can chew. I don't mean anything outlandish or unreasonable (one DS/NS cycle is 6 weeks, after all, which should give people enough time to meet any new requirements that come up), but as things stand now I'm not sure if the current requirement is all that beneficial to the game.

I do agree it's not good for people to feel resentful. I can also see how it can come about if people feel like the only place they can express their concerns is the anon comm. Hopefully having a game-sanctioned place to have these discussions in an open, honest environment will help ease some of that tension.

There's a difference between feeling frustrated about not getting much done, and feeling nasty toward people who have a different posting speed/style. Obviously, both sides would need to be considered when discussing any potential new AC requirements. I also think encouraging players to be more communicative with each other about their limits and reasonable when booking shifts might also be helpful in the long run.

The problem with this is... I don't think you can apply other games' AC standards to Damned because Damned isn't like other games. If someone drops your thread (or is very slow) you can't just pick up a thread somewhere else to boost your own activity. That leads to more exceptions being made for people than would be needed in other game, and more work for the mods. And I don't think our solution should really end in 'more work for mods' because let's face it, our mods already work really hard.

I second this completely. I'm not sure this should be considered another thing the mods should be moderating, but something us as the players should be aware of and attentive to as players in this game.

If there is a post where people comment at the end of the month, it would just take a quick sweep that should take less than a day to go through the comments. That's why I said there would be special conditions. I'm not sure how to meet them or deal with thread dropping, which is an issue and in my prior time here, I did have a few instances where people just didn't show up for threads or tagged me once and wandered off, leaving me, especially on extended shifts, without a new tag.

I think there is a happy medium, but I'm not sure what it would be. :/ I think if people focused on shortening their posts and not worrying so much, it would help, but then that's taking people to task for their anxiety, which is just not right. You can't police someone else for being slow, but maybe if the game restrictions required something different, it might be better and more motivating.

First off, I personally feel the AC requirements should change. For me, 1 post every 2 weeks as a bare minimum doesn't provide very much structure and allows for people who are barely active to coast by during ACs. There have been times where I've probably held onto characters longer than I should have because I was able to pass the AC. Compared to other games, Damned's AC is very loose, and I don't think that's very beneficial for the game anymore.

However, to say that the AC will fix whatever issues some players seem to be having is probably over-simplistic. Having players specify preferred method of contact, allowing people in the plot post to specify their own posting comfort zones/speeds, and encouraging players not to book up every single shift in a DS for all their characters in the plot post, will also likely help things run more smoothly when combined with a more defined AC requirement.

Ultimately, though, I do believe changing AC requirements won't hurt. That's why I voted yes. At the very least, we could implement a new system and see how it works for us.

After reading concerns and ideas from different people, I've put together a draft of a potential change. I'd like to see people's feedback for it. Unfortunately, I have to go to bed soon, but I'll try to get it out sometime tomorrow morning.

ETA: It's down here (http://damned-lounge.livejournal.com/2581638.html?thread=40020870#t40020870) now! Please check it out and add your own thoughts and comments.

Edited 2011-09-27 16:07 (UTC)

What I would like, if we make changes to the AC, is something to promote consistent activity. Reading various comments here and on plurk, there are people who feel like they're being singled out because of their tagging speed and that is unfair to them, especially if they do tag consistently, they just do it every other day or every other two days. There's a difference also between someone who can tag a lot on certain days or the weekend, and then the rest of the week they might be slow due to real life, and someone who tags like once every two weeks. Since this game is so backthread friendly to begin with, simply posting at a slower speed isn't really enough to slow most people down.

The problem is when threads are getting outright dropped, or threadmates disappear in the middle of Nightshift and don't respond to communication, or something like that. Honestly, posting once every two weeks is kind of bad for this game, mostly because two weeks is literally more then half of a Nightshift. It's especially bad when people end up missing events because their threadmate dropped/disappeared and they're stuck with nothing to do and having to handwave shit starting next DS. I know there are some players who might be upset that we need to have this discussion, but you do have to take into consideration the people who are just stuck because their threadmate bails on them. It doesn't matter what your posting speed is if you don't post to begin with.

Some suggestions I heard flying around was stuff like altering the AC so... to give an example, like say it was a monthly AC but you had to provide a post per week, so about 4 posts a month, taking into consideration hiatus/slowatus/weird weeks, etc. Of course, I'm well aware this would require more work, so I'm not really expecting this sort of change either. Now that I think about it, I think what I am really thinking of is maybe some sort of penalty for excessive thread dropping. I'm not sure how one would look out for this, but I'll think more about it.

I can only say this from my view, and my view isn't at all accurate with what's been going on with the rest of the game, but I've had no trouble keeping up threads with people and I'm pretty slow posting myself (hell I have a tag that's like two days old now waiting for me? yikes), but I don't mind if I get a threadmate who can only post every other day or mostly on the weekend (hell, I like it LOL), just as long as we're actually posting.

Edited 2011-09-27 04:03 (UTC)

Yeah, I think there must be a happy medium, we just... need to work it out. Preferably without making people feel anxious or unwanted (which is what I'm afraid of a lot of this doing... I don't want people to quit the game).

A lot of it is a communications problem. And some of it might actually be things like the plotting threads where people make commitments weeks in advance, can't meet them, and then feel guilty and won't just admit to it. It's sort of a complex issue, and I don't think slapping a "post this much in this amount of time" on the problem will really fix it in a way that's good for the game.

This is me, too. I'm fine with the way ACs are, but I really wish they'd happen more often.

Yeah! If people can improve both activity and communication, there wouldn't be a need at all for a policy change. Sadly, it is rather difficult to tell if this is feasible at this point, as it sounds like there's been concern about activity/communication before and nothing improved.

Then maybe an AC could help with organization and structure. I'm afraid, however, there are quite a few people who think this should work as a game-wide slap out of the slow posting blues, and I don't think it will. Speaking from experience, when I stopped posting, it wasn't because I thought I could get away with it. There was a lot going on in my personal life, and it took a while for me to realize I didn't have room for RP. So I quit Damned for a while, but... that's another story. If we change the AC because it's not working as is best for the game, that's one thing, but I think those who are frustrated with the slow pace of Damned players are going to continue to be frustrated.

Unfortunately, it's been plurk as well as anoncomm, and I think the attitude is just completely inappropriate for this discussion if we want to seriously create a more lively RP environment. If we can focus more on opening lines of communication and fostering cooperation, without lowering ourselves to saying people should drop or threatening to avoid them, I think we can make this more comfortable for everyone.

While most of the points I wanted to bring up have already been stated in far better clarification than I could have conveyed them, I think it's also worth merit of saying that when it comes to stuff like notifs being borked or people who (rightfully so) choose to avoid using an otherwise common form of communication, that there has to be some accountability held on the individual's part as well. Telling your threadmates to email you or use AIM or something instead of whatever they consider the norm is, and then waiting for them to contact you instead of taking initiative to ask about posts or plotting or potential CR gets to be a lonely method of doing things. I know it's a two way street, but somebody has to make the first move. Sometimes it has to be you.

I think LJ's track record has become notorious enough in and of itself that it's worth checking your threads at the actual webpage rather than simply refreshing your inbox to check that it's your turn, rather than assuming it isn't and getting a nudge days later from your threadmates. Or if you're not on plurk or don't use chat or pms or whatever, waiting on people to come to you doesn't tend to amount to much communication. Or vice versa. Just in general: if the person you're threading with doesn't use the same mode of web communication as you, don't be afraid to get the conversation started and ping them yourself, and check these modes for your own notifs as frequently as you are able. I personally don't like not being able to talk to whoever I'm threading with. It makes me nervous and I tend to assume I'm doing something wrong when I get silence on all channels, or that they decided to drop the thread and thought it was a mutual unspoken agreement between us when I'm actually sitting there with a question mark over my head (which I think I've done myself a few times, not even gonna lie. Sorry to the people who've had to deal with that on my end.) Not to mention it's worrying because with the internet, you can never really know why it is they're not messaging you back. Could be they're severely depressed, or swamped with school work or any number of equally valid reasons. You don't always need the specifics, but just knowing that you're unable to respond or tag at the moment for whatever disclosed or undisclosed reasons would really ease the mind.

I know that a lot of people do make an effort to put up hiatus notices or get in touch with their threadmates, but I do think we have room for a little more initiative. I'm not going to sit here and pretend I'm all saint-like with my activity and whatnot, because that is ever so far from the truth. I try, but I do fail sometimes. But I do attempt to make an effort to get in touch with as many people as my characters interact with as possible, and sometimes I wish people would make that effort back. We don't have to be ZOMG bestest buddies EVER and tell each other deep dark secrets - I just want to be able to ask if certain actions or thread directions are okay without feeling like I'm poking somebody in their sleep.

I wish I could make a realistic suggestion, but I think it would be nice to hear from people who have a hard time tagging or are slower posters why they are, and try to adjust things to see what would help them post faster.

I'm a fast poster. I don't put that much effort into my tags because if I am, then I'm not having an easy time writing Riku. That's how I function across the board in my life, though, even when it comes to school. Too much strain tends to indicate I need to find a way to make it easier for me. But I don't know how to apply this to other people.

When it comes to RP, though, if I feel like I'm not getting anything out of what I'm putting in, I drop, or I come up with a way to alter that. Maybe that could be something others consider?

Agreeing with some of what's been said already, mostly. I voted no for now, as I don't see how changing the AC requirements will help boost player activity yet. I'd rather wait to see some of the ideas before I'm sold, but as it is, I'm also kind of getting that us vs. them vibe, especially from some of those comments that have come up in places like the Anoncomm.

There is a difference among slow-but-consistent-posting, ludicrously slow posting, and thread-dropping, and some of the slower taggers who work diligently on their tags, but only get them out every day or other day or so, feel a bit alienated at some of the comments that the game needs to pick up the pace. I do agree that it's tough to compare Damned's AC to other games, as Damned is pretty different from everything else on the market in terms of not only gameplay, but playerbase.

One thing to remember is that the average player in the game has changed from where it was a year or so ago: we lost some of our faster taggers (not necessarily due to the game being slow- most left because of other time constraints) this past year, a lot of the long-time players have entered the workforce and college, etc. and that plays into time. The pace of the game overall has slowed down to accommodate that, though I can see where it gets to a point of being too slow. Still, some of the comments have been less than productive.

Players need to be honest with not only themselves in regard to how much they can handle (by keeping only as many characters as they can manage, not scheduling every shift, etc.), but also with other players. If you need to skip two shifts in a row for some reason, it's okay to call a brief hiatus in case you get caught in an AC. If you're going to be slow, tell your partner. If your partner is slow, don't hesitate to ask them what's up. Communication is one of those things I will always push for.

Anyway, no suggestions from me yet, but I'm going to think on it and come back to this. Hopefully, we can find a solution that's best for everyone. One thing I really would like to see is a higher frequency of ACs. I don't think putting them on a schedule would help too much, as then people could just scramble to get a tag out right before it, but I would like them on a more regular basis than they are now.

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Activity Check Discussion Post + Contact List Update

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