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damned_lounge2011-09-26 07:14 pm
burningvigor.livejournal.com) wrote in damned_lounge2011-09-26 07:14 pm
Activity Check Discussion Post + Contact List Update
Hello, everyone!
While the game has been trucking along pretty nicely (I hope the military arc has been enjoyable for most of you!), recently there's been a lot of talk about people's waning activity. I do think that Damned is a place where you can afford to be slow at times, where you don't have to post to every shift -- this isn't meant to discourage people who aren't lightning taggers like some of us. It's already been mentioned a number of times, but there's little I can do as a mod to make people post faster, and yet there are a few changes that can be made to possibly work through this problem. I definitely want to encourage people to put their all into the game when possible and to play out some awesome plots, so here goes.
This issue was brought up over on the suggestions post, so this is mainly just meant to be a continuation of that. It was mentioned there that this is something that should be talked about by the game as a whole, and so this post is basically an open forum for people to give their thoughts and talk things out. Whether you're one of the people who's frustrated or someone who is on the slow side and looking to explain your side of things, feel free to reply and comment around!
The two solutions which have been brought up are as follows:
a) changing the requirements for the activity check
b) adding a "Posting Speed" section to the plot post form
The second option there would mainly be a way for people to know from the start what to expect from potential thread partners. It's not much of a change, but it would allow an open line of communication to be present from the start.
Changing the Activity Check requirements is something that is going to require some more thought, and so I'd like to start by polling you all on if you think it's something that needs to be revised.
[Poll #1781912]
So go ahead and fill that out, reply here with your thoughts, and we'll see what we can do about this! I'm sorry there's not more I can do, but hopefully this is a step in the right direction.
Additionally, some changes have been made to the Contact List in order to make communication easier for everyone. There's been a spot added for people to list their plurk names if they wish. It's in no way required, but if you are open to people contacting you/conversing with you through plurk then please feel free to list it. More importantly, a Preferred Method of Contact section has been added so that other players can know how you would like to be contacted. I'd like to ask for everyone to respond to the contact list with their response to that section if possible! Thanks a lot for reading all this, and have a nice night, everyone.
While the game has been trucking along pretty nicely (I hope the military arc has been enjoyable for most of you!), recently there's been a lot of talk about people's waning activity. I do think that Damned is a place where you can afford to be slow at times, where you don't have to post to every shift -- this isn't meant to discourage people who aren't lightning taggers like some of us. It's already been mentioned a number of times, but there's little I can do as a mod to make people post faster, and yet there are a few changes that can be made to possibly work through this problem. I definitely want to encourage people to put their all into the game when possible and to play out some awesome plots, so here goes.
This issue was brought up over on the suggestions post, so this is mainly just meant to be a continuation of that. It was mentioned there that this is something that should be talked about by the game as a whole, and so this post is basically an open forum for people to give their thoughts and talk things out. Whether you're one of the people who's frustrated or someone who is on the slow side and looking to explain your side of things, feel free to reply and comment around!
The two solutions which have been brought up are as follows:
a) changing the requirements for the activity check
b) adding a "Posting Speed" section to the plot post form
The second option there would mainly be a way for people to know from the start what to expect from potential thread partners. It's not much of a change, but it would allow an open line of communication to be present from the start.
Changing the Activity Check requirements is something that is going to require some more thought, and so I'd like to start by polling you all on if you think it's something that needs to be revised.
[Poll #1781912]
So go ahead and fill that out, reply here with your thoughts, and we'll see what we can do about this! I'm sorry there's not more I can do, but hopefully this is a step in the right direction.
Additionally, some changes have been made to the Contact List in order to make communication easier for everyone. There's been a spot added for people to list their plurk names if they wish. It's in no way required, but if you are open to people contacting you/conversing with you through plurk then please feel free to list it. More importantly, a Preferred Method of Contact section has been added so that other players can know how you would like to be contacted. I'd like to ask for everyone to respond to the contact list with their response to that section if possible! Thanks a lot for reading all this, and have a nice night, everyone.
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tl;dr about it. My main issue is the severe lack of consideration I have seen for the past few DSs for myself and others. Obviously it's frustrating when you plan for something and it doesn't happen, but that could be overlooked if there was basically common decency about communication.
I'm not rawr rawr rawr slow posting, I'm raging over people not tagging for days to weeks to never without even letting their threadmates know. I would like to get things done in Damned--either CR based or plot based, and honestly, I would rather have people tell me if they can't tag to me so I can tag someone else and not waste my time.
RL trumps all. That's common sense. But as said within the suggestions post I believe, online is the same as offline. There's politeness and decency that should followed in both cases. If you make plans with people, you follow through--and if you can't, or you're going to be late/delayed, you tell the person. Period. For some reason barely any post to the lounge anymore, where it used to be that people posted for the tiniest of delays. I remember a bunch of, "I can't post for tonight! Sorry guys!"
In the long run, it is just that. People have things that come up, off days, etc. Which is perfectly fine. What is not fine is thinking that your threadmates will always be fine with waiting and not having any idea of what's going on with you. It has nothing to do with pointing fingers, questions of anxiety, or unrealistic expectations. It has to do with people forgetting that there are other people on the other side of the screen.
Post hiatuses. Post slow posting. PM your threadmates. Email them. IM them. Plurk them. Comment to the thread with an ooc note that you'll be delayed. Do any of those things but do them, and frequently. It's infinitely better to do it more than needed than to do it not at all. We used to do this well, and somewhere along the way, we just stopped. And it does need to be fixed.
A thousand and one times your threadmate would prefer a heads up on what's going on than a mystery delay where we have no idea what is happening.
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And as for the AC thing, I am in favor of changing it because too many times, for canonmates more than anything, I've seen people remain in the game for over six months with two threads to their name, and it does mess up your canonmates/threadmates. If people can stay in the game like that, there is a problem. And really a question of why people are in the game in the first place if it's not really to play.
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Other people have also mentioned limiting how many shifts they throw their characters out into the during DS, and I can see how that could help as well with keeping people from needing to backtag too much, and hopefully making it easier for them to manage their time. I also plan on working with this. While I love all my CR, sometimes just scaling back could really help with time issues and keep things from really getting bogged down, which I think other people also have issues with. Once you're stuck with a lot of backthreads it can be intimidating to jump back into tagging after a short leave, too, and that only causes more problems. At least in my experience.
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And I know it can be hard to accomplish, but it makes everyone happier in the long run.
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And I'm seeing a lot of 'castmates, castmates, castmates' tossed around. Which. Well. Damned is a very slow game. You don't need your castmates for every thread. Or even every dayshift. I'm not saying that there isn't a reason to be frustrated if they just never ever post, but it seems like people might be relying on them too much, if they're getting this frustrated over it. Not that people should be that inactive, but if it's slowness of castmates getting people down, maybe they need to branch out and get some new CR. Tag those people who can't get a NS partner. Don't plan every DS thread ahead of time, and tag some open people. There are a million ways to work things that doesn't involve changing game mechanics in the vague hope that it will improve things. I can almost guarantee it won't, especially when people are starting to feel upset and singled out.
And for what it's worth, maybe I just have more luck, but people contact me all the time about why their threads are going to be slow or why they can't post. So it's maybe some people? But not the whole game. And I'd rather not have a million 'I can't tag tonight' threads on the lounge. Can't post for two-three days? Okay. One night? The world will not end if you don't notify 70+ people of it.
ETA: Just to clarify that all of this is in general, not specifically aimed at anyone. They're just points that got mentioned here, so it was easiest to respond here.
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The contact thing... I don't think I've ever encountered someone that was angry at lag. And putting that aside, it's the responsible thing to do, contacting people, so it should be done regardless of the reaction.
The castmate thing does affect if you have a character wholly dependent on that castmate if they are in the picture, and I've seen multiple people with this problem and it does affect your entire gameplay.
And the fact that it's so casually stated that "Damned is a very slow game," is one of my main problems which got me involved in all of this. It's not supposed to be. The in-game time is spread out and lengthened, but it is not supposed to be "very slow." That even goes against the sense of the schedule, as it used to be expected (and done that way for years), that threads were completed within the 3-4 days of a shift. That is faster than any other game I have been in, prose or comment spam.
The mentality that Damned is slow is a main problem that needs to be fixed and adjusted.
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People are seeing angry people now, and getting upset, which isn't going to help their tagging speed at all. And while people might not actually be upset about lag? I know it's a fear players have, because I've seen it expressed. I'm not saying they shouldn't contact, I'm just pointing out that one of the reasons it happens is being legitimized now.
Unless they are joined at the hip, this is (pardon my french) bullshit. I play someone who is very dependent on the castmate he has in game, and is a cranky recluse to boot, and guess what? I can survive perfectly well if my castmate can't tag me for a bit. Now, it's one thing if they keep telling you they're going to tag you, you reserve posts for them, and then they vanish, but expecting them to be there all the time for you is ridiculous. Do you spend 24/7 with your real life friends? No. Your characters don't need to do it in game, either. And hell, IC actions = IC consequences. If your castmate isn't there, have the person react appropriately. I know castmates bring important and easy CR, but people need to stop using it like a crutch.
You're misconstruing my use of 'very slow.' What I mean is, even if someone vanishes for six weeks in this game, they have missed exactly ONE DAY in game. The world would not end if you did not see a friend for one day, so people acting like it's the end of the world do have a slow castmate is ridiculous.
Basically, I feel like there are really mixed issues that people are trying to fix with one ill-fitting solution. Or worse, that some people think they can use AC to boot slow players and get new, faster castmates, which is just flat-out horrible.
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If you're referring to other mediums, please clarify--if it's to the anon post, for one, that's not here, and therefore shouldn't be listed. And honestly, in that case, and in those circumstances, it's wholly justified--as stated in my original post here, it's the lack of communication that is seriously frustrating as it's a lack of consideration. If people are upset at not being contacted or tagged to, they can be if they feel that need to--it shouldn't affect the people that aren't tagging them at all, because it is justified in those scenarios only. The people not being tagged to should not have to adjust behavior to gain tags, which is how you're coming off in your explanation.
This, however, is perpetuating the us versus them mentality, and I don't like feeding into that.
The canonmate argument that you stated is, to use your own words, bullshit itself, and I'm not going to argue with you on it.
You said very slow so I took it as it was. In your explanation that you've just given, I wholly agree with you, though. As I've said elsewhere and on the suggestion post--if it doesn't affect others, I don't mind. It's when the person is in a thread with others already and vanish for days to weeks that is the problem.
It's really not about the activity at all, which, again, I said in my original post. It's about the lack of consideration and communication.
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I am going to use my own character as an example. Nigredo at this point is a 12-years-old boy with a weak emotional constitution. Circumstances in Damned as well as his canon need to not be separated from his brothers make him incredibly dependent on his brother, Albedo. In canon, he killed his own father because his father's plans were going to ultimately take Nigredo away from his brothers.
With this established, in Damned, I may not require Nigredo to interact with Albedo everyday. There are workarounds for that. But let's say Albedo's player (Aison, in this case) became inactive. Only posted him once every other IC day. Do you believe Nigredo, the character who has proven in canon to show instability or take extreme actions in the face of a brother's absence, can be worked so that he's both IC and am able to continue on without taking a massive negative hit?
Please, before you write off castmates affecting others as "bullshit", consider that there are a wide variety of characters, and they each approach their canon relations differently. Not all are going to be well-adjusted to having missing CR. Some may end up negatively affected because of someone's inactivity.
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Albedo is more visibly dependent than Nigredo on their third brother, Rubedo. This, in canon, reveals itself as Albedo constantly following Rubedo around, taking offense to most that interact with him, and needing physical/mental/emotional contact nearly at all times. When Rubedo is not in Damned, I can balance that out myself, but when there are Rubedos in Damned, and they are wholly inactive, I find myself choosing to either drop him as he becomes unplayable after a couple of days, be ooc in his actions and mentality, or try to ignore the issue, which is just bad playing.
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Perhaps not. But that means you take a negative hit, in my opinion. That's what RP is. What would you do if he dropped completely? It's not necessarily going to be fun, or easy, but you roll with it. Blaming someone else for an inability to do anything with a character just doesn't sit well with me.
I mean, I get where you're coming from, trust me. I played someone in another game that became amazingly codependent on another character and then out of the blue, the player stopped posting, dropped all contact, and I had to wait quite awhile for AC to boot them. This was someone my character was living with, in a game that ran in real time. It sucked. I had to find ways to deal with their inactivity before they got dropped, and the fallout afterwards. But it also served to help me develop my character in a new direction. So I know how it goes. You have that canonmate, you want them to post and be active any play with you. And if the player was posting once every... that would make it more than 12 weeks in the scenario you offered, I think, you would have a case to go to the mods with, easy. But I really doubt that scenario is very common here (please, correct me if I'm wrong. If this is a massive problem, I will shut up about it forever). The vibe I'm getting is that people are just unhappy that they're not getting very fast tags from their canonmates and that it is 'holding them up.' This is a much more moderate issue, and one I don't think should be fixed by changing a games rules.
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Please give me permission to bronze this comment and hang it on my wall. It's true that dropping and disappearing castmates can be a bummer on your character, but that's part of the game. That kind of CR can really build your character, too. Edgar's primary development has actually come from a lost castmate (sob), which I never expected until I started playing it out.
I even give my guys an in-game day or so to find out their friends are gone in case I don't want to play it out immediately. That's one of the beauties of a game that does move at this rate.
But yes, in short- agreed.
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I'm going to bring up an issue that I had no intention of divulging until now to clarify my stance. That scenario is actually more common than you think. I went through this twice with Nigredo; only instead of the hypothetical situation with Albedo, it was with his other brother, Rubedo. Both of the Rubedos we've had in Damned fell out after months of inactivity. I've done everything through the proper channels: talked to the players about their inactivity, filed an official report with the mods, and still, it took each Rubedo player months before they were finally booted for AC. Once they were booted, of course, it was much more simpler to work around the dependency matter as it was obvious in my character's mind that they were gone. Nothing can be done. Great, right?
Except not really. This could have easily been avoided if the inactive players had approached me and worked out a deal. Sure, in that case, there probably would be a negative hit to my character, but at least we would have worked it out. That's my stance here. Canonmates affect canonmates. We can easily not overburden these sorts of players with unnecessary negativity if we just communicate and work out things instead of falling into inactivity. Sure, negativity may happen, but at least it would be worked out. That's my stance.
Also, as mentioned above, the scenarios you and I illustrated are so much more common than you might believe. Most of it is currently being worked out among the players so obviously it's not something apparent. Nor would I want that to be the case since that, you know, brings about more drama than necessary. But I will say that is a pretty common occurrence in Damned.
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... I am sorry, but I don't see anyone angry in this post. People here are trying to find things to fix problems, but suggesting that people are angry and ranting is particularly inaccurate.
That said, when Riku wasn't active, I know it was a strain on Court with Sora. Why? Because he is the type of character that his friends would look after. Castmates are an important aspect of things for some people, and suggesting that they're not is particularly unwise. I don't think anyone is singling anyone out (and to be honest, I don't agree with the people who decided to go anon for months, which is why I suggested to Aison in the first place that this was made unanon because I find anon communication and handling of problems to be uncomfortable, so I actually am pretty separate from a lot of the threads that have occurred re: this subject, since they have been needlessly harsh).
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And like I said above, you are limited by castmates exactly as much as you let yourself be. I don't understand the people who act like the world has ended and they cannot RP anymore because they have a slow castmate. Obviously, I'm not encouraging anyone to just. Never post. Or to say they will and then vanish without contact. But if they do? You find a way to handle it. Trust me, it can be done. The harsh reality is that not everyone tags at the same speed. Some people are always going to be slower. People need to find ways to cope with it as best as possible.
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Some of them are my friends, so obviously I'm not writing them off. But I really think people are taking this far too personally. Instead of thinking they're being pointed at (...something I have said here, once again), it should be taken as it is: a method for discourse and communication. No one is saying, so and so doesn't do this. We're all saying we want a better gaming experience, and to know what's up with our threadmates.
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Anyway, I don't think anything very productive is being accomplished, so I'm just going to say I respect your opinions, but find myself in disagreement with virtually all of them, and leave it at that.
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And I can accept that. Truthfully this thread is a prime example of why we should be talking to each other, to work out these opposing viewpoints, but I understand if you'd prefer to keep it how it is.
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