damned_lounge | Activity Check Discussion Post + Contact List Update

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Activity Check Discussion Post + Contact List Update

Hello, everyone!

While the game has been trucking along pretty nicely (I hope the military arc has been enjoyable for most of you!), recently there's been a lot of talk about people's waning activity. I do think that Damned is a place where you can afford to be slow at times, where you don't have to post to every shift -- this isn't meant to discourage people who aren't lightning taggers like some of us. It's already been mentioned a number of times, but there's little I can do as a mod to make people post faster, and yet there are a few changes that can be made to possibly work through this problem. I definitely want to encourage people to put their all into the game when possible and to play out some awesome plots, so here goes.

This issue was brought up over on the suggestions post, so this is mainly just meant to be a continuation of that. It was mentioned there that this is something that should be talked about by the game as a whole, and so this post is basically an open forum for people to give their thoughts and talk things out. Whether you're one of the people who's frustrated or someone who is on the slow side and looking to explain your side of things, feel free to reply and comment around!

The two solutions which have been brought up are as follows:

a) changing the requirements for the activity check
b) adding a "Posting Speed" section to the plot post form

The second option there would mainly be a way for people to know from the start what to expect from potential thread partners. It's not much of a change, but it would allow an open line of communication to be present from the start.

Changing the Activity Check requirements is something that is going to require some more thought, and so I'd like to start by polling you all on if you think it's something that needs to be revised.

[Poll #1781912]

So go ahead and fill that out, reply here with your thoughts, and we'll see what we can do about this! I'm sorry there's not more I can do, but hopefully this is a step in the right direction.

Additionally, some changes have been made to the Contact List in order to make communication easier for everyone. There's been a spot added for people to list their plurk names if they wish. It's in no way required, but if you are open to people contacting you/conversing with you through plurk then please feel free to list it. More importantly, a Preferred Method of Contact section has been added so that other players can know how you would like to be contacted. I'd like to ask for everyone to respond to the contact list with their response to that section if possible! Thanks a lot for reading all this, and have a nice night, everyone.

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Honestly, I think that some people don't contact because they're afraid of... well, what they're getting here. Borderline angry reactions (in general) out of people when they can't post. Yes, I know the frustration is because they haven't made that contact, but...

And I'm seeing a lot of 'castmates, castmates, castmates' tossed around. Which. Well. Damned is a very slow game. You don't need your castmates for every thread. Or even every dayshift. I'm not saying that there isn't a reason to be frustrated if they just never ever post, but it seems like people might be relying on them too much, if they're getting this frustrated over it. Not that people should be that inactive, but if it's slowness of castmates getting people down, maybe they need to branch out and get some new CR. Tag those people who can't get a NS partner. Don't plan every DS thread ahead of time, and tag some open people. There are a million ways to work things that doesn't involve changing game mechanics in the vague hope that it will improve things. I can almost guarantee it won't, especially when people are starting to feel upset and singled out.

And for what it's worth, maybe I just have more luck, but people contact me all the time about why their threads are going to be slow or why they can't post. So it's maybe some people? But not the whole game. And I'd rather not have a million 'I can't tag tonight' threads on the lounge. Can't post for two-three days? Okay. One night? The world will not end if you don't notify 70+ people of it.

ETA: Just to clarify that all of this is in general, not specifically aimed at anyone. They're just points that got mentioned here, so it was easiest to respond here.

Edited 2011-09-27 06:20 (UTC)

On the notif thing, I think we're just of different opinions on that so I'll leave that. =P

The contact thing... I don't think I've ever encountered someone that was angry at lag. And putting that aside, it's the responsible thing to do, contacting people, so it should be done regardless of the reaction.

The castmate thing does affect if you have a character wholly dependent on that castmate if they are in the picture, and I've seen multiple people with this problem and it does affect your entire gameplay.

And the fact that it's so casually stated that "Damned is a very slow game," is one of my main problems which got me involved in all of this. It's not supposed to be. The in-game time is spread out and lengthened, but it is not supposed to be "very slow." That even goes against the sense of the schedule, as it used to be expected (and done that way for years), that threads were completed within the 3-4 days of a shift. That is faster than any other game I have been in, prose or comment spam.

The mentality that Damned is slow is a main problem that needs to be fixed and adjusted.

I think, though, that now that it has shifted to being a slower game, pushing the speed back up is going to be hard without making the people who joined when it was a slow game and/or because it was a slow game feel really alienated. Even at a post a day, threads are still not going to get done within shift windows for most shifts.

Oh, yeah, no, I'm not saying that it's doable as that currently. But I am pointing out that the game is set up for a higher rate of speed, so at least that should be taken in mind instead of written off. It's become slower, but it's not supposed to be a slow game. And I think using that as an excuse just perpetuates the cycle.

Ahhh, fair XD Your tone was coming off a little 'WE MUST BE FAST AGAIN' to me but... tone and internet is hard, lol.

LMAO Yeah, I apologize for that, then. We should all just go on skype and discuss or something so it's obvious in tone. =P

The contact thing... I don't think I've ever encountered someone that was angry at lag. And putting that aside, it's the responsible thing to do, contacting people, so it should be done regardless of the reaction.

People are seeing angry people now, and getting upset, which isn't going to help their tagging speed at all. And while people might not actually be upset about lag? I know it's a fear players have, because I've seen it expressed. I'm not saying they shouldn't contact, I'm just pointing out that one of the reasons it happens is being legitimized now.

The castmate thing does affect if you have a character wholly dependent on that castmate if they are in the picture, and I've seen multiple people with this problem and it does affect your entire gameplay.

Unless they are joined at the hip, this is (pardon my french) bullshit. I play someone who is very dependent on the castmate he has in game, and is a cranky recluse to boot, and guess what? I can survive perfectly well if my castmate can't tag me for a bit. Now, it's one thing if they keep telling you they're going to tag you, you reserve posts for them, and then they vanish, but expecting them to be there all the time for you is ridiculous. Do you spend 24/7 with your real life friends? No. Your characters don't need to do it in game, either. And hell, IC actions = IC consequences. If your castmate isn't there, have the person react appropriately. I know castmates bring important and easy CR, but people need to stop using it like a crutch.

And the fact that it's so casually stated that "Damned is a very slow game," is one of my main problems which got me involved in all of this. It's not supposed to be.

You're misconstruing my use of 'very slow.' What I mean is, even if someone vanishes for six weeks in this game, they have missed exactly ONE DAY in game. The world would not end if you did not see a friend for one day, so people acting like it's the end of the world do have a slow castmate is ridiculous.

Basically, I feel like there are really mixed issues that people are trying to fix with one ill-fitting solution. Or worse, that some people think they can use AC to boot slow players and get new, faster castmates, which is just flat-out horrible.

Actually the only one coming off angry right now seems to be you, or at least you're responding defensively in a way that doesn't seem productive. No one on this post is angry, and no one here is posting angrily in any way, shape, or form.

If you're referring to other mediums, please clarify--if it's to the anon post, for one, that's not here, and therefore shouldn't be listed. And honestly, in that case, and in those circumstances, it's wholly justified--as stated in my original post here, it's the lack of communication that is seriously frustrating as it's a lack of consideration. If people are upset at not being contacted or tagged to, they can be if they feel that need to--it shouldn't affect the people that aren't tagging them at all, because it is justified in those scenarios only. The people not being tagged to should not have to adjust behavior to gain tags, which is how you're coming off in your explanation.

This, however, is perpetuating the us versus them mentality, and I don't like feeding into that.

The canonmate argument that you stated is, to use your own words, bullshit itself, and I'm not going to argue with you on it.

You said very slow so I took it as it was. In your explanation that you've just given, I wholly agree with you, though. As I've said elsewhere and on the suggestion post--if it doesn't affect others, I don't mind. It's when the person is in a thread with others already and vanish for days to weeks that is the problem.

It's really not about the activity at all, which, again, I said in my original post. It's about the lack of consideration and communication.

I'm going to slide in here and say that the necessity of castmates' presence depends highly on the canon and the characters involved. There are some that do require daily interaction/presence with a target canonmate or else they become either (1) impossible to play after a point, (2) degrade into an entirely negative state that will detriment their interactions with other characters in the game, or (3) another negative effect that hampers the player's choice to keep things IC vs. bending things too far OOC. It seems a little strange to those who might not be familiar with such characters/canons, but anyone can attest to this if they have played a particularly dependent (and especially unstable) character.

I am going to use my own character as an example. Nigredo at this point is a 12-years-old boy with a weak emotional constitution. Circumstances in Damned as well as his canon need to not be separated from his brothers make him incredibly dependent on his brother, Albedo. In canon, he killed his own father because his father's plans were going to ultimately take Nigredo away from his brothers.

With this established, in Damned, I may not require Nigredo to interact with Albedo everyday. There are workarounds for that. But let's say Albedo's player (Aison, in this case) became inactive. Only posted him once every other IC day. Do you believe Nigredo, the character who has proven in canon to show instability or take extreme actions in the face of a brother's absence, can be worked so that he's both IC and am able to continue on without taking a massive negative hit?

Please, before you write off castmates affecting others as "bullshit", consider that there are a wide variety of characters, and they each approach their canon relations differently. Not all are going to be well-adjusted to having missing CR. Some may end up negatively affected because of someone's inactivity.

LMAO if we want to do personal examples, I can add my own, as it's more extreme. However, take into consideration that I have seen this with others before I even apped my own.

Albedo is more visibly dependent than Nigredo on their third brother, Rubedo. This, in canon, reveals itself as Albedo constantly following Rubedo around, taking offense to most that interact with him, and needing physical/mental/emotional contact nearly at all times. When Rubedo is not in Damned, I can balance that out myself, but when there are Rubedos in Damned, and they are wholly inactive, I find myself choosing to either drop him as he becomes unplayable after a couple of days, be ooc in his actions and mentality, or try to ignore the issue, which is just bad playing.

Do you believe Nigredo, the character who has proven in canon to show instability or take extreme actions in the face of a brother's absence, can be worked so that he's both IC and am able to continue on without taking a massive negative hit?

Perhaps not. But that means you take a negative hit, in my opinion. That's what RP is. What would you do if he dropped completely? It's not necessarily going to be fun, or easy, but you roll with it. Blaming someone else for an inability to do anything with a character just doesn't sit well with me.

I mean, I get where you're coming from, trust me. I played someone in another game that became amazingly codependent on another character and then out of the blue, the player stopped posting, dropped all contact, and I had to wait quite awhile for AC to boot them. This was someone my character was living with, in a game that ran in real time. It sucked. I had to find ways to deal with their inactivity before they got dropped, and the fallout afterwards. But it also served to help me develop my character in a new direction. So I know how it goes. You have that canonmate, you want them to post and be active any play with you. And if the player was posting once every... that would make it more than 12 weeks in the scenario you offered, I think, you would have a case to go to the mods with, easy. But I really doubt that scenario is very common here (please, correct me if I'm wrong. If this is a massive problem, I will shut up about it forever). The vibe I'm getting is that people are just unhappy that they're not getting very fast tags from their canonmates and that it is 'holding them up.' This is a much more moderate issue, and one I don't think should be fixed by changing a games rules.

Perhaps not. But that means you take a negative hit, in my opinion. That's what RP is. What would you do if he dropped completely? It's not necessarily going to be fun, or easy, but you roll with it. Blaming someone else for an inability to do anything with a character just doesn't sit well with me.

Please give me permission to bronze this comment and hang it on my wall. It's true that dropping and disappearing castmates can be a bummer on your character, but that's part of the game. That kind of CR can really build your character, too. Edgar's primary development has actually come from a lost castmate (sob), which I never expected until I started playing it out.

I even give my guys an in-game day or so to find out their friends are gone in case I don't want to play it out immediately. That's one of the beauties of a game that does move at this rate.

But yes, in short- agreed.

They aren't talking about a loss of castmate. They're talking about someone who was allowed to sit around idle for months, and speaking as someone who, reluctantly, did that to another person, it's not okay. There are special cases of dependency where people from certain canons would notice. Acquiring a stricter AC would change that. No one situation is the same, and I can guarantee that both players have successfully handled untimely drops. They weren't talking about that at all. And in a game like Damned, there is a vast difference between "dropped" and "still in play," where visible presence can be acquired. Please keep that in mind.

Yeah, that kind of happened to me, too. I understand, believe me.

Yeah, like Alison said, I wasn't talking about the loss of a castmate either through dropping or disappearing. I'm more talking about a castmate who sits idly on their character for months so technically, their character is milling around the setting for months, asleep on their bed or whatnot. I've elaborated the details of a similar scenario below.

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threepwood - 2011-09-27 07:49 (UTC) - Expand

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psyches - 2011-09-27 07:55 (UTC) - Expand

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psyches - 2011-09-27 08:23 (UTC) - Expand

Bronze it all you want. ;)

Take a negative hit because someone wasn't courteous enough to either drop out of the game or at least help me handwave scenarios? Hey, I can take a negative hit as much as any, but I would like to be part of the planning for that as opposed to having it forced upon me by someone who could have simply taken time to be courteous. You're basically insinuating that I should be blamed for another's inactivity affecting my character, and that is a rather unfortunate insinuation, IMO.

I'm going to bring up an issue that I had no intention of divulging until now to clarify my stance. That scenario is actually more common than you think. I went through this twice with Nigredo; only instead of the hypothetical situation with Albedo, it was with his other brother, Rubedo. Both of the Rubedos we've had in Damned fell out after months of inactivity. I've done everything through the proper channels: talked to the players about their inactivity, filed an official report with the mods, and still, it took each Rubedo player months before they were finally booted for AC. Once they were booted, of course, it was much more simpler to work around the dependency matter as it was obvious in my character's mind that they were gone. Nothing can be done. Great, right?

Except not really. This could have easily been avoided if the inactive players had approached me and worked out a deal. Sure, in that case, there probably would be a negative hit to my character, but at least we would have worked it out. That's my stance here. Canonmates affect canonmates. We can easily not overburden these sorts of players with unnecessary negativity if we just communicate and work out things instead of falling into inactivity. Sure, negativity may happen, but at least it would be worked out. That's my stance.

Also, as mentioned above, the scenarios you and I illustrated are so much more common than you might believe. Most of it is currently being worked out among the players so obviously it's not something apparent. Nor would I want that to be the case since that, you know, brings about more drama than necessary. But I will say that is a pretty common occurrence in Damned.

Okay. I want to take a step back here. I'm not talking about doing nothing about seriously inactive canonmates. That would be ridiculous. If someone never posts, and you contact them (you can't just wait for them to contact you) and nothing comes of it, take that straight to the mods, because it is hard to deal with. But if it comes to that, and they get booted, or you get told you have to wait for them to get booted, yeah, you take the hit. Like I said, I've been there, it sucks, but you work through it. As far as I'm aware, taking that sort of inactivity to the mods has always been an option.

But a more moderate problem, like someone slow-posting to threads or maybe missing a thread or two, that should not be seriously messing up your ability to play your character. Especially in Damned, where it means maybe they're gone for a 'day' or less.

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ofthemotions - 2011-09-27 08:08 (UTC) - Expand

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stellarregions - 2011-09-27 08:25 (UTC) - Expand

Then maybe we're getting different vibes. I do know that other people are being upset and feeling singled out by some of these complaints, though, which I don't think is fair at all.

And like I said above, you are limited by castmates exactly as much as you let yourself be. I don't understand the people who act like the world has ended and they cannot RP anymore because they have a slow castmate. Obviously, I'm not encouraging anyone to just. Never post. Or to say they will and then vanish without contact. But if they do? You find a way to handle it. Trust me, it can be done. The harsh reality is that not everyone tags at the same speed. Some people are always going to be slower. People need to find ways to cope with it as best as possible.

Edited 2011-09-27 06:52 (UTC)

Thread jumping, sorry. But on the fact of people that are upset?

Some of them are my friends, so obviously I'm not writing them off. But I really think people are taking this far too personally. Instead of thinking they're being pointed at (...something I have said here, once again), it should be taken as it is: a method for discourse and communication. No one is saying, so and so doesn't do this. We're all saying we want a better gaming experience, and to know what's up with our threadmates.

It's very simple to say 'don't take it personally' but not so easy to not take it personally when you feel like someone's pointing a finger at you.

Anyway, I don't think anything very productive is being accomplished, so I'm just going to say I respect your opinions, but find myself in disagreement with virtually all of them, and leave it at that.

Despite the fact that no one has been singled out, hinted towards, or referred to at all. All right.

And I can accept that. Truthfully this thread is a prime example of why we should be talking to each other, to work out these opposing viewpoints, but I understand if you'd prefer to keep it how it is.

I find it personally fairly condescending and edging toward the negative tone you implied was already happening to say that "[nothing] very productive is being accomplished". That isn't helping the discussion at hand. I'm not attacking or singling anyone out, and no one else is here. The implication that we are even when we say we aren't is not very polite, either. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm sorry if anything I've said has come cross as an attack of someone else's play. That was never my intention.

Well, when I say that, I just mean that I feel like we're going around in circle. We can keep hashing it out, but I doubt we're going to come to an agreement. It's okay. We don't have to agree, especially on things that are very much a matter of opinion, you know?

I don't really think anyone is trying to attack or single anyone out. I mean, I'm not offended by anything here, personally, but I'm also one of the fast taggers, so I wouldn't have a reason to be, honestly. I just know that people are getting upset.

I mean, I can sit here and debate this with you until forever, if that's really what you want, but if what you want out of all of this is for us to agree, I don't think it's going to happen, so I think it's best to just agree to disagree?

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